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Intervju: Anine Kierulf

Et innslag i vår serie korte intervju med aktuelle samfunnsdebattanter. Denne gang med Anine Kierulf, norsk jurist med fagfeltene konstitusjonelle spørsmål, menneskerettigheter og ytringsfrihet.

  1. Hvordan står det til med ytringsfriheten i Norge i dag?

    Rettslig sett: Historisk og komparativt bedre enn noen gang.

    Faktisk: Det finnes det ikke noe godt svar på, tror jeg. Det er vanskelig å undersøke på en fullt ut dekkende måte, og det er vanskelig å vite hvordan det er nå i forhold til før, fordi vi ikke har noen gode undersøkelser fra før heller. Det som finnes av mer systematiske studier som går over det siste knappe tiåret her i Norge tilsier vel at det står rimelig bra til, og ikke har blitt verre.

    Det vi vet, er at opplevelsen av at det er mye det er så upopulært å si at man føler seg «kneblet», eller at det er mye man lar være å si, ikke er noe nytt fenomen – hverken i Norge eller i verden. Vi er sosiale gruppedyr, og det å si ting som går på tvers er aldri populært. Toleranse for og forsvar av ytringer man sterkt misliker, er kontraintuitivt. Vi må forstå den mekanismen for å håndtere uenighet godt.

    Internett har endret samfunnssamtalen på måter vi ikke ennå fullt forstår konsekvensene av, tror jeg. Det har gitt en voldsom utvidelse både av ytrings- og informasjonsfriheten, men bringer også alle de sosiale utfordringene med menneskelig kommunikasjon og samhandling, alle de andres og våre egne følelsesmessige reaksjoner, mye tettere innpå sinnene våre, store deler av døgnet.

  2. Hvilke umiddelbare utfordringer truer ytringsfriheten på kort og lang sikt her til lands?

    Vanskelig å si. Jeg er ingen teknologipessimist, og jeg er idealistisk på vegne av menneskeheten. Men en ting jeg lurer på, er hvordan det inntrykket vi har av stadig mer polariserte og uforsonlig offentligheter påvirker den tause majoriteten mellom de høylydte ytterfløyene. Inntrykket er ikke nytt, men akselereres åpenbart av algoritmer, som jo spiller nettopp på den sosiale psyken vår. Blir de forstått eller temperert i tide til at viljen vår til et uenighetsfellesskap består? Det er jo forutsetningen for fungerende demokratier. Eller må det noen kriser til først?

  3. Du anklages tidvis for å forsvare ekstreme ytringer, når du forsøker å forklare hva loven sier om hvordan rettsstaten skal forholde seg til disse ytringene. Har du noen tanker om hvorfor forskjellen er så vanskelig for mange å forstå?

    Ja, det synes jeg ikke egentlig er så rart. Ekstreme ytringer utløser lett sterke følelser. Slikt er ganske fundamentalt, vi mennesker er vel primært følelsesstyrte. Selv om suksessfaktoren vår er slike intuitive reaksjoner temperert av rasjonalitet, forutsetter jo kombinasjonen ofte overvinnelse av følelser og forankringer. Det krever både vilje og tid. Ytringsfrihets- og rettsstatsprinsipper er ganske abstrakte greier i forhold til frykt eller eitrende sinne.

  4. Norge har ingen blasfemiparagraf i dag, men samtidig har hendelser som karikaturkrisen i 2005-06 og terrorangrepet på Charlie Hebdo ført til at det i praksis er innført en form for uskrevet blasfemilov. Hvordan bør det offentlige, mediene, og landets befolkning for øvrig stille seg til dette?

    Vi skal i alle fall ikke ha berøringsangst for denne kjensgjerningen, og den kunne med fordel adresseres oftere. Ikke minst av mediene, som ellers holder ytringsfrihetsfanen høyt. Det er jo nærliggende å tenke at grunnen til at få av dem publiserte karikaturene som den franske læreren Samuel Paty ble halshugget for å ha vist frem i sitt klasserom i 2020 – som da hadde en åpenbar nyhets- og informasjonsverdi – var en helt reell frykt for terror. Ingen andre religiøse skånes for denne typen religionskrenkende ytringer, og det er åpenbart hvorfor. Jeg tror vi gjør våre muslimske medborgere en bjørnetjeneste ved ikke å snakke om denne forskjellsbehandlingen av Islam. Selv om mange muslimer misliker harselas med profeten, tar jo de aller, aller fleste like stor avstand som andre fra å møte ytringer de opplever som krenkende, med vold.

  5. Fungerer § 185 om hatefulle ytringer etter din oppfatning som tiltenkt? Setter loven urimelige grenser for ytringsfriheten, og bør den i så fall endres eller fjernes?

    It’s complicated. Den bør ikke fjernes, men den bør endres. Det er to løsbare, og ett uløsbart problem med bestemmelsen, slik jeg ser det.

    For det første er den kronglete og gammeldags formulert, og rammer etter sin ordlyd langt flere ytringer enn det den etter rettspraksis faktisk gjør. Uklare lover er en uting. Uklare straffelover er en særlig uting. Uklare straffelover som skaper tvil om hvor grensene for vår grunnlovsbeskyttede ytringsfrihet går er rettsstatlig uholdbart.

    For det andre har den utviklet seg i to retninger – der bare den ene egentlig har noen form for demokratisk gjennomtenkning bak seg: Bestemmelsens tiltenkte funksjon var å verne utsatte minoriteter mot det hat som kan oppstå mot dem fra majoriteten, som følge av hatefulle ytringer. Altså et samfunnsvern: Vi er som flertallsdemokratisk samfunn avhengig av å ivareta våre utsatte minoriteter. Bestemmelsen har denne samfunnsvernfunksjonen ennå, og på en måte der avveiningen mellom minoritetsvern og ytringsvern ofte sikrer ytringsfriheten på en prinsipielt god måte. Bestemmelsen har imidlertid fått en individverns-forgrening, som utgjør hoveddelen av sakene det siste tiåret: Den gir nå et særskilt slags personlig æresvern til de utsatte gruppene som er omfattet av loven. Det kan godt hende disse gruppene skal ha et slikt vern, men da bør dette fremgå av et eget straffebud, som er bedre tilpasset en slik verneverdig interesse, og som er plassert i straffelovens personlige frihetskapittel istedenfor i samfunnsvernkapittelet der den nå står.

    Det tredje problemet er vanskeligere, og gjelder ikke bare hatytringsparagrafen, men alle paragrafer som har som mål å avverge de uønskede effekter ytringer kan ha på tredjepersoner: Fordi vi mennesker er mennesker, og reagerer på ulike måter, er slike effekter vanskelige å forutse. Hva er egentlig egnet til å «fremme hat»? Til å «krenke en annens omdømme»? Helt saklige ytringer som åpenbart er vernet og ikke rammes av bestemmelsen, kan ha noen ganger ha en slik effekt. Hvis innvandrergruppe X er overrepresentert på fem av seks voldsstatistikker, og en bekymret forsker forklarerer dette – er jo det åpenbart egnet til å fremme hat eller «ingeakt» overfor innvandrergruppe X, selv om forskerens mening kanskje var å muliggjøre bedre integrering av gruppen. På den annen side, kan helt usaklige, slemme og krenkende ytringer vise seg å ha positive effekter for utsatte grupper. En sinnamann på twitter som ranter monomant mot skeive – er det egnet til å fremme hat mot skeive? Eller tvert om, til å få enda flere til å slå ring om skeive, fordi sinnamannen fremstår så slem og urimelig? Men dette er altså et iboende problem med ytringsreguleringer – og det problemet finnes i ulike former i ulike historiske epoker i alle demokratiske rettsstater som setter ytringsfriheten høyt.

    Intervjuet ble gjennomført av Morten Guldberg på vegne av Tankesmien Dømmekraft.

    Foto: Herman Ellegård

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