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Lysglimts listetopp – enn så lenge

Markus Gaupås Johansen studerte sosiologi og tok en master i kunsthistorie, før det bare ble tull. Han har lang fartstid fra NRK, og er nå aktuell med humorpodcasten 5080 Nyhetskontrollen hos Manifest Media. I tillegg har han prestert en sjeldent seriøs bok om humor. Vi treffer ham rett fra en paneldebatt om humorens betingelser i dag, hvor han prinsippfast forsvarte komikeres ytringsfrihet.

-Finnes det noe man ikke kan tulle med?

-Nei! Spørsmålet er måten det skjer på. Det kanskje beste eksempelet på det er Atle Simonsen, som var rådgiver for tidligere helseminister Bent Høie. Han prøvde seg som stand up-komiker, og hadde noen vitser om menn som ble voldtatt. Litt billige vitser om et sensitivt tema, og det floppet. Dette ble tatt ut av sin sammenheng, og det ble skandale. En statsekretær som tuller med voldtekt! Slikt tuller man ikke med. Jeg så klipp av hele stand up-showet hans. Det begynner egentlig ganske bra. Han forteller at det er han som har ansvaret for alkoholpolitikken i Norge. «Og alle som kjenner meg vet at det er like ansvarlig som å gi Michael Jackson ansvaret for Barnevernet.»
Dette gav ham masse latter. Ingen reagerte på dette, selv om det temaet er pedofili. Altså mye drøyere. Men, fordi vitsen var morsom og litt mer subtil, så oppleves den mer ok. Det er ikke tema i seg selv som er problemet. Men, jo mer betent temaet er, jo smartere må det gjøres.

-På 90-tallet kunne komikere gjerne henge ut rasister ved å parodiere dem. Og i etterspillet etter episoden mellom Atle Antonsen og Sumaya Jirde Ali kom det frem at hun faktisk skjønte at det var noe slikt han prøvde på. Hun lo bare ikke av det. Man kan spøke med hva som helst, men det må gjøres anderledes enn tidligere?

-Ja, også fordi minoritetene i dag har en annen selvtillit enn tidligere. Komikerne må være mer lydhøre. Vi lytter mer i dag enn vi gjorde tidligere. Atle Antonsen gjorde et poeng ut av hun var på et veldig «hvitt sted», men påpeker jo da også at hun er mørk. Og det har hun gjerne følt veldig på. Skal man være drøy, må man også være sikker på at man treffer planke!

-Humor består gjerne i å pushe grenser. Hvordan opplever du at ting har endret seg siden du begynte som komiker?

-Publikum har endret seg, og da må vi endre oss. Publikum er jo fasiten! Det funker ikke i dag å vitse om at innvandrere lukter hvitløk. Mine barn har venner med foreldre fra hele verden. Vi assosierer dem med så mye annet. Jeg ville ikke funnet på en så enkel assosiasjon som det. Det i seg selv gjør jo parodiene blir anderledes. Men den største endringen er kanskje at TV-kanalene er reddere for hva man kan si om andre. I dag er det slik at alt man lager må innom en eller annen redaktør.

-Hvor lenge har det vært slik?

-Jeg opplever at det skjedde et slags skifte etter drapet på George Floyd. Vi som jobbet i Satiriks hadde da en stund pushet grenser og vært litt høye på det. Og det slo nok litt tilbake på oss. Det hadde vært en stund hvor vi hadde helt frie tøyler. Så lenge prosjektlederen sa det var ok, var det greit. Den tilliten der, generelt for komikere… Hver gang noen reagerer på et komisk innslag, så forsøker redaktørene bare å drepe debatten. De vil egentlig ikke diskutere komedie, fordi det er vanskelig. Det er ingen som står opp og sier «dette er en viktig sketsj». Folk er redde for at komedie skal lage kontroverser.

-Det folk ler av er jo gjerne å bryte normer, pushe grenser. Går det egentlig an å lage politisk korrekt humor?

-Ja, det gjør det. Men humoren blir litt dårligere hvis den blir redd. Der man virkelig kan bryte tabuer er når man går løs på seg selv. Selvironi, utlevering, ting man gjør med sin egen kropp. Drikke fire liter melk på ti minutter. Her er det ingen grenser og denne typen humor er morsommere enn noen gang! Men humoren som er rettet mot andre grupper i samfunnet synes jeg dessverre er litt tammere. Særlig rundt år 2000 var det en nesten pønkete bølge, spesielt i England. Eksempelvis Chris Morris´ film Four Lions, om fire selvmordsbombere. Den er veldig morsom, men han er en sånn type som har vanskeligere kår i dag. Kanskje også Sasha Baron Cohen.

-Er dette fordi denne typen humor ikke lengre slår an, eller fordi det legges restriksjoner på den?

-Begge deler, egentlig. Det som er vanskelig er at de unge og kule før var opptatt av at man skulle kunne si hva som helst. Tulle med hva som helst. Dette kler humoren veldig godt. Men de som legger premissene for humoren i dag er ikke opptatt av man skal kunne si hva som helst. De er opptatt av å ta hensyn. Det kler ikke komedien å være på lag med Ketil Rolness og gamle konservative. Det kler den å være på lag med de unge og progressive, pønkere. Dette er vanskelig.

-Er du redd for at de «feile» folkene skal le av dere?

Johansen flirer i skjegget.

-Ja, ja! Det er jeg. Egentlig er jeg glad så lenge noen ler. Men… Skrekkeksempelet er mine kollegaer i Norske Grønnsaker som laget jødesvinsketsjen. Det var én virkelig positiv tilbakemelding på Twitter, og det var fra Lysglimt. Det var ikke noe kult.

-Lysglimt, der har dere kanskje litt å ta av?

-Det er sant. Jeg er jo meldt opp på hans liste.

-?

-Det som skjedde var at han meldte oss opp på valglisten. Man kan jo bare nominere hvem som helst. Oss og Johan Golden, Espen Thoresen og flere kulturpersonligheter. Så vi ble enige om å kuppe partiet. Vi får alle følgerne våre på Facebook til å melde seg inn i partiet hans og så styrter vi ham. Holdt pressekonferanse og alt mulig. Men så fant vi ut at reglene i partiet gjorde at det ikke var et reellt partidemokrati. Det er bare han som er partiet. Så det funket ikke. Han fikk bare mye mer oppmerksomhet. Nå har han gjort det samme igjen i år. Jeg er på andreplass på Alliansens liste. Jeg må bare huske å melde meg av.

-Humor kan bryte tabuer og ufarliggjøre vanskelig tema. Pushe grenser. Er vanskelig humor viktigere å verne enn «pappavitser»?

-Ja, og humor har jo et eget vern. I henleggelsen av Antonsen-saken står det at han tydelig prøvde å være morsom. Det er jo en formildende omstendighet. Humor komplisert språkbruk. Det er en lek med ord. Ting betyr ikke det det gjør i andre sammenhenger. Det trenger et særlig vern. Ellers kan det ikke fungere. Vær varsom-plakaten er jo også slik. Du kan gjøre nesten hva du vil, så lenge det er komedie. Du kan ikke bli felt for det. Det har vel bare hendt etpar ganger, med satiretegninger.

–Du vet denne tegningen av Jesus, Moses, Buddha og Ganesha som har sex på intrikat vis…

-Ja, og så står det under: «No one was murdered because of this image». Jeg tror dette er min favorittkarikatur. Den er The Onion sin. Under karikaturdebatten tenkte jeg egentlig at det ikke er noe spesielt med islam. Det er på en måte som kristendommen, bare 100 år etter. Men når den tegningen kom, så slo det meg. En av de få gangene jeg virkelig fikk en stor innsikt. Av en karikaturtegning som snudde ting på hodet. Jo, selvfølgelig er det noe spesielt med islam. Det er ingen hinduer som dreper fordi noen fister guddommen.

-Hvordan er det å ha et yrke alle mener veldig mye om?

-Det er jo ikke ofte jeg er i slike debatter. Det er en komikers privilegium. Jeg kan mene noe i en vits hver dag, og så slippe å svare. Man kan ikke svare på en vits. Det er ganske behagelig. Jeg kan tømme meg for aggresjon, hva som måtte irritere meg i avisene. Jeg er hakket mer harmonisk enn før jeg ble komiker.

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